How do we keep showing up, for ourselves, and others, in the face of change, adversity and loss?

"I might not do anything productive again." These were the raw, unfiltered words of Gillian Coutts as she shared with me the thoughts that crossed her mind when she woke up from her life-altering stroke in 2022.

Just 11 days before her stroke, Gillian Coutts and I had shared the stage at The Thriving Workplace event in Sydney. I was captivated by her charisma, profound insights into applied positive psychology, and unwavering dedication to help others unlock their full potential back then, and remain as inspired by her positive force in the world today.

Over the past two years, Gillian has embarked on an extraordinary journey of rehabilitation, with her family and good friend and professional colleague, Jenny Steadman, right by her side. Each day, she is learning to integrate her former identity with the realities of her new one, which as a result of her stroke, is shaped by acquired physical limitations and cognitive differences.

In this episode of the NeuroPEAK series, I had the privilege of sitting down with Gillian and Jenny, who has recently shifted into the role of National Director of The Potential Project, a role she'd previously shared with Gillian.

Together, they candidly explored what it has been like to navigate these profound changes, offering insights into the transformative power of vulnerability in leadership, the importance of self-awareness, and the invaluable role of love and connection in navigating life’s toughest challenges.

Gillian’s recovery journey exemplifies the practice of "active hope," which pairs self-compassion and a vision for a different future with intentional action. This philosophy mirrors the work she and Jenny champion through The Potential Project, whose mission is to balance high performance with humanity.

Practical Takeaways for Thriving in Leadership

Jenny and Gillian’s work with leaders highlights key strategies for creating inclusive, high-impact environments:

• Self-awareness as a foundation: As Jenny observes, cultivating an impact mindset starts with understanding our strengths, limitations, and the daily choices we make.
• The power of curiosity: Staying open to uncertainty allows leaders to foster innovation and connection, even amidst rapid change.
• Courage to pause: Both women emphasise the importance of intentionally slowing down, reassessing priorities, and creating environments where humanity can thrive—especially in an era where AI accelerates the pace of work.

Key Highlights

• How The Potential Project is shaping a more human world of work.
• The story of Jenny and Gillian’s enduring friendship and its role as a source of strength in challenging times.
• How Gillian’s stroke has reshaped her perspective on love, relationships, and leadership.
• The power of “wise optimism”: accepting reality while moving forward with hope and intentional action.
• Why navigating change requires emotional agility and self-awareness.
• The role of compassion in modern leadership and workplace culture.
• How AI can complement, rather than replace, human qualities.
• The importance of inclusive workplaces in fostering connection and well-being.
• Why celebrating small achievements builds resilience.
• Gillian and Jenny’s reflections on what makes life truly meaningful

As I reflect on Gillian and Jenny’s story, one call to action resonates deeply: In our relentless pursuit of progress, how often do we pause to celebrate the quiet victories—the ones no one else sees?

As Jenny thoughtfully asks, “What is it that you have in your life right now that you might look back on one day and think, ‘Wow, that was amazing?’”

This episode challenges us to make space for both grief and gratitude, vulnerability and strength. As Gillian so beautifully puts it, “It’s not about what you can’t do—it’s about the dignity of simply showing up.” 

Connect With Jenny and Gillian Further: 

• Explore the work Jenny and Gillian support through The Potential Project here - www.potentialproject.com 

• Connect with Jenny on LinkedIn here
• Connect with Gillian on LinkedIn here
• Visit Jenny’s website directly here
• Watch Jenny’s TEDx Talk: “End the silence around sexual violence’ here

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Watch on YouTube here:

 

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of Classroom 5.0.

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Ready to finally take action on those big goals you're chasing? Get your free ADHD Motivation guidebook, Master Your Mind and Find Your Mojo! 

 

Transcript

Mariane (00:53)

Hello, Jenny and Gill, this feels so special. And listeners, you're gonna have to just catch up with me, because you'll find out why in just a second. But thank you so much for joining me here on the podcast for Classroom 5.0. We've been riffing on when to make this conversation happen, and you've had so much going on, both of you, Gill, you in particular, the last few months, so to be here with you both right now.

 

Yeah, it feels, I'm absolutely honored and privileged. So thank you for joining me. How are you both?

 

Gillian L Coutts (01:24)

Good. Good.

 

Jenny Steadman (01:26)

Yeah, very good. Thank you. Happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

 

Mariane (01:30)

Good, I love that To catch you up listeners, Jenny and Gill.

 

The Potential Project. We're going to hear about that in a sec. But I met Jenny just this year actually at the Thriving Workplace event. And Gill and I collided a couple of years back actually in 2022. I think that was the first time we met at the Thriving Workplace event then when we were both speaking. And the only reason I doubt myself, Gill, for context is because for me at least that connection in those couple of days with you were just so natural and easy. I just enjoyed spending time with you and our conversation shared. But it felt like a

 

I'd known you a lifetime, a long time and then to learn that 11 days after that event that you'd suffered such a significant stroke, yeah, was just heartbreaking to hear of.

 

Gillian L Coutts (02:06)

It's a long time.

 

Mariane (02:19)

and to hear parts of your recovery journey has been an absolute privilege and pleasure. So I'm really thrilled to be inviting you here today to share that with our audience because I think they're going to learn a lot from you and your insights. So thank you for generously sharing and you too, Jenny. The friendship between the two of you just has blown my mind. But anyway, I could rave and rant and fan club on both of you for hours. So let's not do that just yet, Maz. I'm going to throw it over to you both. Can you tell us a little bit first and foremorst about

 

The Potential Project,

 

Jenny Steadman (02:50)

Well, Potential Project is actually a global organization. We're a research and leadership development and consultancy firm. And our purpose is to create a more human world of work, which is really interesting in this age of AI.

 

And our next book that's coming out is about how we can make the most of artificial intelligence and yet double down on our ability to create that human model for it. So really interesting, published by Harvard Business Review coming out soon. But yes, that's what we do here in Australia as well. So Gill and I are both the co-national directors for a Potential Project in Australia and absolutely love the work that we do, supporting leaders and teams to cultivate that.

 

both and quality where we can be both achieving high performance and doing so with care for our people, bringing in that humanity.

 

Gillian L Coutts (03:49)

And Jenny, you say that so eloquently and I know you would have seen me throw to you because I know I am not that familiar, no, I am not very good at taking the reins so it's really good to be together.

 

Jenny Steadman (04:09)

well, always great to be together and over the years it's been a to and fro between us. So it's just the way that it is at the moment.

 

Gillian L Coutts (04:16)

Yeah.

 

Mariane (04:17)

Mmm.

 

Yeah, that that to and fro is just magic between the two of you, I have to say. I haven't watched you fro together. I want to ask you about that actually, because you've come together and collided for work and your shared passion of people and bringing that real human element and care and kindness into our workforce.

 

How did you meet? Was it through work or was there a friendship prior to your work engagement together? Because obviously that's blossomed now, but tell me a little bit about your origin story together.

 

Gillian L Coutts (04:49)

you can fill out the before thing and then I can just come in with the highlights.

 

Jenny Steadman (04:58)

Sure, that's okay. We actually first met a long time ago, back in, well, before 2000, it was probably about 1998, I think it was, yeah. Because we both worked for Sokolg, for the organizing committee that put on the Olympic Games in Sydney in 2000. And so we met then, but you weren't with Sokolg for very long back then, I don't think, yeah. Although it felt like you were there for ages, like,

 

Mariane (04:59)

Beautiful.

 

Gillian L Coutts (05:08)

Nice. Yep.

 

Mariane (05:11)

Wow.

 

Jenny Steadman (05:27)

felt like you were just, you

 

Gillian L Coutts (05:28)

That was because we were good at partying We were awesome at partying

 

Jenny Steadman (05:33)

Partying, yeah, that's right. Yeah, a of people who worked there at Sokolk were great at that. But then many years went past and we went off into our different fields of things, post games. then I was, well, a part of our journey was that we both had breast cancer as well. And it was when...

 

Mariane (05:35)

I'm 

 

Gillian L Coutts (05:38)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (06:01)

after I had gone through my little bit of recovery from breast cancer and I was considering what am I... this is going to come out saying... it was going to come out like what am I doing with my life? I didn't mean it like that. What I meant is I had a moment to stop and think am I doing something that's making a really positive difference in the world? And in part of doing that reflection I caught up with a mutual friend of...

 

Gill's and mine and we were chatting and she saying you know what you really ought to be back in touch with Gill again and this is several years ago now and so I did record up for a coffee in North Sydney that time I remember that Gill and there began our

 

Gillian L Coutts (06:43)

remember

 

even remember you working walking to the table and it's like it's changed my life so it's it's moment

 

Jenny Steadman (06:57)

You changed my life. We're mutually changing each other's lives. But yes, we had this beautiful moment. And I remember we had to get going and our conversation was for ages in the coffee shop in North Sydney. And then we walked out onto the street and then we sat on sort of like the footpath talking. And I remember a butterfly landed on my finger or my hand. And we just were there talking about this butterfly that just landed there.

 

And then from there on, we started working together in friendship.

 

Would you want to add in more, there Gill?

 

Gillian L Coutts (07:34)

I you've done it pretty well. Thank you very much. I like it.

 

Jenny Steadman (07:34)

Thank

 

Mazz was that what you were after?

 

Mariane (07:43)

I'm not sure that I had a set agenda, but you've absolutely delighted me. And I'm so glad I asked. I don't know if you remember at the thriving event, but I asked you when you were both on stage, what has this experience of a significant life event being the stroke? And for you, Gill, I'm gonna invite you to share some of that story in a minute, because it really was significant and nearly took your life. But what...

 

Gillian L Coutts (07:55)

Hmm

 

Mariane (08:06)

What has that done to reshape your thinking around love? And I don't know that I got to follow up and circle back on that. The reason that I asked that question was because watching the two of you engage in your friendship, the container that you've created for yourselves to experience personally, but then also to express love, it just was so palpable to me.

 

Gillian L Coutts (08:10)

you

 

Mm.

 

Mariane (08:33)

to see it in action. And again, you haven't disappointed in sharing your origin stories. Thank you. So let's like double click on that because I want to circle back on this question about love and optimism and hope and all the beautiful things that I know you both talk about. before we go there, just for our listeners in particular, some context. Gill, if you feel comfortable, would you mind taking us back to share what this stroke has done for you in terms of...

 

really reshaping your experience of being human, being here.

 

Gillian L Coutts (09:03)

How

 

Well, morning that I had the stroke, it started like any other normal day. I kind of got up. I had a couple of work meetings and I've had a...

 

were they, I'm sorry, I've, had a presentation that afternoon, sorry, a bit long, but, and so I went over to the hotel where he was presenting at one o'clock and I had a chat with him about a podcast and blah, blah, blah, all that kind of stuff. And then I was literally about to,

 

Mariane (09:55)

Mm-hmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (09:59)

to go on stage, like I had my mic on, I have all the way to go and I suddenly thought, actually, like I'd had a headache during the day, so I'd had some norepine and then I had, maybe I need some more, so I had some more and then just for some known reason, I was like, okay.

 

I've just got to sit down. And so they were all looking at me, were waiting. And then actually, I think I need to lay down. And that was like, whoa, there must be something really wrong here. And I thought, well, we'll just like, I'll get up and we'll go on. But no. So luckily someone dealt with the audience and, they got some paramedics to come in and

 

Mariane (10:37)

Wow.

 

Gillian L Coutts (10:58)

They that I like I asked someone to ring my husband. I can't remember when they did or not. But and then was by the time we got to the hospital, I was just about to pass out. And then I basically don't remember until three and a half weeks, weeks after that, that I woke back up. So.

 

The whole experience for a long time, was an even another two months or maybe one and half that I couldn't speak. having Jenny as a part of that story is really an enormous blessing to me.

 

Mariane (11:53)

what's it meant to have her by your side?

 

Gillian L Coutts (11:53)

Mm.

 

I don't know whether you've ever had a moment where you know that nothing is ever going to be the same. Like, it's just that moment when you think and it's not, it's a lot, it's, know, you might say that you'd say that when you're in love or, you know, something about, but this was like, I might not ever happen having, I never might do anything.

 

I mean, might not do anything, anybody, sorry, I'll start again. I might not do anything productive again, but that's entirely possible. And there were times when I was thinking that and Jenny, like even when I was,

 

sort of, couldn't speak but I had eyes. And we talked about, we talked about, but we didn't talk about, she did all the talking. it's okay, it's gonna be okay, just keep breathing, we can smile at each other and we will eventually gonna get there.

 

Mariane (13:00)

Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (13:23)

So I don't know, Jenny, can you wanna just help me out?

 

Mariane (13:29)

Yeah, what was like for you, Jenny? Gosh, thank you, Gill. I took away from that, it's funny, because you talk about hope, and we're talking an active hope. And for me, it sounds like Jenny in that moment was that sort of that external source of hope for you and somebody that you knew that you could be safe with and be held with. Jenny, tell me what it was like for you to watch your friend, Gill, to be suffering in that moment.

 

Jenny Steadman (13:50)

you

 

extraordinarily hard and I also don't want to give the impression that I was the only person there supporting Gill. Gill has a billion gazillion friends. Though I know Steve, your husband was very it was very is careful the right word about who could come and see you in those early days as well in those very early days when you're in intensive care and and then in hospital after that.

 

Mariane (14:07)

Hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (14:28)

like I remember the first time I saw Gill in intensive care if I hadn't have been told that was Gill in the bed if I had to just like walk around and find which patient in the bed was her I probably would have just walked straight past because she just looked so different and I was so like shocked in a way there were tubes everywhere tubes out of skull

 

and your nose and your throat, your mouth, know, tubes everywhere, people everywhere, lights everywhere, just so much that was going on as well. And yeah, and then...

 

Mariane (15:05)

Mm.

 

Jenny Steadman (15:13)

I remember there was one time in intensive care where...

 

your eyes could make contact with me and

 

there was that moment of hope in a way that is there a connection there? Is this the start of there going to be a bit of a connection? Did that eye contact mean that you were actually looking at me, seeing me and that you could see that I was looking at you and seeing you, et cetera? Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (15:50)

beautiful.

 

Mariane (15:51)

Man, the image that came to my mind just now was the butterfly on the hand moment. Yeah. Yeah, wow. Is there a starting again? there a... Yeah, tell me how has it shifted your mindset, Gill, in terms of how you see the world, how you see relationships, how you see everything.

 

Gillian L Coutts (15:55)

Yes.

 

Jenny Steadman (15:57)

No.

 

Gillian L Coutts (15:58)

Yeah.

 

So I haven't had cancer before. for 12 years before I had cancer, well, the stroke I had cancer. So that was like I got my eating right and I got my exercise right and I changed jobs and I started doing the Potential Project and all of these things happen. So when I had...

 

Mariane (16:22)

Mmm.

 

Mm.

 

Hmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (16:45)

a stroke, was kind of like almost the first thing I was thinking as I woke up was bloody hell. Like, haven't I already done all of this? This is like, I can't go back here again. But actually, there's so much like, I'm kind of

 

Mariane (16:55)

You've done the work.

 

Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (17:11)

embarrassed in a way because there's been so much to learn that I'm like, okay, maybe I didn't get it quite right the first time. I think the world now has more curiosity. So, and of course, we always talked about curiosity in all our things that we talk about. And you can feel it that people

 

Mariane (17:15)

Hmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (17:40)

have, they're curious. But like, for example, I got to know my husband again, like, I mean, I did know him, but it was that the thing that was different was he suddenly had to step up and be the breadwinner. He had to be the carer. He had to be the

 

Jenny Steadman (18:08)

you

 

Gillian L Coutts (18:10)

the person who looked after our son, he suddenly had to become all these things. And I think if I had been in the place that he was in and I said, my husband had a stroke, I'm not in sure that I would actually have made it through.

 

that I would have been actually been like I've so long because I was going okay with work and I did things, I will say well, that I like I just had this head that said.

 

Mariane (18:51)

Mmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (19:06)

I've got this, like I've got this, like you know, everything I've got this. I mean, it doesn't matter how you feel inside is what you say on the outside. And suddenly I had nothing. And so it's been really, really interesting to see my husband absolutely thrive. I mean, he would say, and shit and all this stuff, but what he'd really say is,

 

Mariane (19:11)

Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (19:36)

I think I've, my, I have to step back and he's stepped forward and flown. So he really, yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, that's, I'll say enough.

 

Mariane (19:56)

And for you that vulnerability, it sounds to me like it was a new experience or a different level of vulnerability that it sounds like felt fresh and odd and curious within itself. I wonder if I can ask you both, and maybe Gill starting with you. When we first met, you were speaking a lot to the idea of wise optimism and the transcendent emotions that we speak to, particularly in positive psychology, awe chasing.

 

We connected a lot on those concepts. Where do you stand now? Maybe from a philosophical perspective and also what would you like to share with other people in terms of, I heard you say before, I thought I'd learned and now I've learned more. And Jenny, I saw you shake your head.

 

Gillian L Coutts (20:33)

Bye.

 

No.

 

Mariane (20:42)

And I imagine that there's that, you know, there's a part that's like, but you already knew so much that we all want to scream, but you also want to acknowledge that depth of discovery that I think maybe is creeping up there. What would you share about those big emotions that you've learned? Or experiences?

 

Gillian L Coutts (20:56)

Mmm.

 

Yeah, I think that we, in wise optimism, we talk about the the realization of the reality that you're, and you have to accept it like this. There's some things that you haven't like, for example, now, for example, I have to, I have to accept that there, the chances are I won't

 

be able to work what I have, like I have in the past. In some way, it was gonna change. And I accept that, or at least I try to accept that. But also that if you, you can be really defeatist about that. And if you...

 

Mariane (21:41)

Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (22:00)

And sometimes that would be, I think that's okay, like that's completely okay. But there's another piece of it that really hooks onto the hope of something different. And so it's realizing that those two emotions or...

 

like yeah I'll call them emotions that are what that's that's got to be happening all the time.

 

Mariane (22:41)

Mmm, side by side. Yeah, and Jenny, how about for you?

 

Jenny Steadman (22:49)

Yeah I'd agree with with what you're saying there Gill. There's and I've seen it in what you're the way that you've been since you had your stroke as well. There's been that seeing the reality clearly as it is and I know that there's that's almost like a constant having to relook at today's reality and then the next day comes along and then that today's reality.

 

even the reality changes and yet I've also seen you take steps towards what you hope to be a better future as well. So there's that combination really of seeing things clearly that acceptance of the way that things are right now and yet being prepared to take some steps like not not being passive or giving up or giving in or anything like that. There's steps towards something being different.

 

the future to the way that it is right now. And I guess I say all of this right now because I know Gill that you've you've gone through a lot and right now you're experiencing a feeling of like okay is is this the way that it's going to be? So we're we're in a new stage of acceptance of reality right now. Not actually knowing what it's going to look like in the future and we'll never know but this is where we're at right now.

 

Gillian L Coutts (24:16)

Yeah. Yeah.

 

Mariane (24:20)

Thank you for sharing.

 

what I learned from you both as you share and particularly in hearing your story Gill, is the maturity, it reminds me of the agility quotiant. So we talk about emotional intelligence, we talk about normal intelligence and then that ability to be agile, to recognize that nothing

 

that we have in our present moment experience is guaranteed, can be predicted. That's something that we all live with being human anyway. And the depth of appreciation of that reality is something I really am taking away from what you're sharing. How is that translating then back into the work that you're both doing with leaders? What are you noticing as the responses as they lean in and they listen, they get curious? What are some of the reflections that are coming back?

 

Gillian L Coutts (24:51)

Mm.

 

Hmm.

 

Jenny, I think you're well placed to do that.

 

Jenny Steadman (25:20)

Yeah well I think there's such a spectrum, a range of people's responses to things like this. Because yes that is part of what we do. We talk, we go into companies and we talk about awareness and we talk about wisdom and we talk about compassion and we talk about acceptance and we talk about courage and integrity and beginner's mind and

 

Mariane (25:31)

Mm.

 

Hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (25:47)

all sorts of things and there are some people who are leaning in yes I need to hear this I want to hear this it makes it makes so much sense and I was I was running a program on Monday this week where that was everyone in the room they were so like yeah we need this kind of thing right at the moment

 

And then there will always be those people who are like, no, I'm not ready to hear this yet. Or they're not even ready to say the bit that they're not ready to hear it yet. Like it's like a no, not for me type thing.

 

Mariane (26:17)

Hmm. Hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (26:24)

But I think in this age of AI as well, it's actually more important now than ever before for us to, well, yes, make the most of everything that artificial intelligence has got to offer us, but more important now than ever before for us to double down on our human qualities. And that's also part of, I guess, the message of what you've gone through, Gill, is that

 

Mariane (26:29)

Okay.

 

Jenny Steadman (26:56)

I, and if I answer this from the perspective of watching, it's the connections and the friendships that you've got all around you that love, that care from a million billion gazillion people. And that's one of the things that I learned about Gill post stroke was that there are actually so many people who love and adore her. So it just goes to show that when

 

But yeah, mean, times of deep challenge and crisis, that it is that humanity that makes the big difference. That is everything, that care and that compassion and that support, that action. Like that's what compassion is. It's action to alleviate other people's suffering or our own. And yeah, saw that very much with everything that you've gone through, And it's good to see that also being...

 

discussed within corporate world as well, the need for those qualities.

 

Gillian L Coutts (27:58)

Yeah.

 

Mariane (28:02)

I'm glad you brought AI to that conversation because it does feel like we're at a precipice at the moment, a tipping point, a choice point.

 

you know, do we, do we try and keep up with the advancements in faster, faster, faster, which we've really bred a hustle culture that, that is seeing its worth and its value in, the more, more, mindset. And, and the choice point is, is to sit and to reflect on, what is it that we as humans are actually bringing to the table as this, the competitive advantage, if you like, you know, what can we contribute back, to be this and with AI.

 

Jenny Steadman (28:32)

Thank you.

 

Mariane (28:38)

So I love the work that you're doing in that space and helping people to come back to connection, to come back to curiosity and to come back to love. It's so important and big. It seems almost absurd that it should be, but it is. It's where we are right now. So thank you for sharing all of that. Yeah.

 

Jenny Steadman (28:50)

Yeah.

 

Yeah. Well even just what you said then there are a things in what you were saying that just really rings true that you've used the word choice a couple of times and that is really really important because that's where we talk about self-awareness and awareness of others as well because with this awareness we can then come face to face with the choices that we're making and as you said Mazz it's really important that we are at a choice point.

 

Mariane (29:07)

Mmm, autonomy.

 

Jenny Steadman (29:24)

you also talked about the hustle and the busy busy busy so in fact things are going to come at us even faster but that calls upon us to be intentional about the moments when we actually need to slow down where we need to slow down and we need to have that wise discernment about all of this data that's coming our way and how can we therefore use that for the purposes of care and compassion so yeah what you've said is really true

 

Mariane (29:25)

Yeah.

 

Mm-hmm.

 

Hmm.

 

Yeah, 100%.

 

Jenny Steadman (29:54)

in what we're seeing

 

Mariane (29:56)

Yeah, thank you for expanding upon it too It makes me think about the conversation around inclusive impact and how leaders can be inclusive.

 

What have you learned in terms of your journey together around creating an inclusive workplace for yourselves as a partnership as that's evolving? Because I appreciate it's not static. It's going to need to move and evolve and be agile in itself. And then what are you sharing with other leaders who wanting to lean into how they can be both rather than it being this maybe it has to be a choice. Maybe you can't be inclusive and be financially profitable.

 

I would argue that's probably not the case but I'm really curious to hear what's your experience there.

 

Gillian L Coutts (30:39)

Hmm. I think just.

 

Jenny Steadman (30:40)

Did you want to answer Gill from where you are at the moment?

 

Gillian L Coutts (30:44)

Yeah, I think it's really interesting, for example, watching Jenny do everything at the moment. And I think it's like really interesting that what choices does she make? for me, I'm going through a similar process, like what choice am I going to make? What needs to be happened today?

 

And for me, for example, just get like I've been going, going at quite a pace over the last couple of weeks. And then, my body's saying, you can't do this, you cannot. And so all of a sudden I know I'm being able to,

 

Mariane (31:35)

Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (31:42)

told I have to slow down, like my body's telling me that have slow down. But actually, that doesn't mean that I can't in, in, in, in still include some different ideas, but they're in a different way or a different time. But Jen, I've been really interested in what you've been doing.

 

Jenny Steadman (32:08)

Really? I'm wondering what that might be specifically. So, well, Maz, which bit of that would you want me to start on first? Like the, the us being the kind of thing you call it.

 

Mariane (32:13)

Hahaha!

 

Yeah, what I'm hearing, what I'm imagining Gill might be speaking to, and maybe I'm just picking up on something earlier in the conversation around the vulnerability that comes from an identity that was, from my impression of you and from what I've heard you share, highly achiever, highly productive, being the one who would almost lead the Project and push the Project and be the idea generator, but then be the executor as well.

 

And I'm imagining in the same way that there's a vulnerability in a romantic relationship and a marriage to take a step back and go, wow, somebody else is stepping into the role that I assumed I had to do. And that if I didn't do it, this whole thing was going to fall apart. I'm imagining that.

 

that maybe there's similar patterns going on in terms of what it might be like to reassess and reevaluate what is my role in this business moving forward. And here's this business partner that we had a different dynamic with prior to a stroke. And now I'm watching Jenny do all of these things and I'm curious about that and I'm seeing a new version of her. That's where I went to in my head. I don't know if any of that.

 

Gillian L Coutts (33:30)

Mmm.

 

Mariane (33:32)

is ringing true and if so I guess Jenny my question to you would be what is it like to re-evaluate your role and what's it like to have someone that you work with professionally so closely

 

who's not opting out because that could be an option. You know, a lot of organizations, a lot of employees, a lot of business partners would go, okay, well, things have changed. So I'm out, you know, good luck on your go. Whereas there's something that's happening with your with your dynamic, whether it be intentional, conscious, or whether it's evolving, that you're opting in and you're leaning in and going, well, let's redesign this. So I guess I'm curious about that.

 

Gillian L Coutts (34:13)

And let me tell you guys, all Jenny. It's all Jenny.

 

Mariane (34:18)

driving it.

 

Gillian L Coutts (34:20)

Amazing.

 

Mariane (34:23)

In what way?

 

Jenny Steadman (34:27)

How did you, in what way would you say Gill, like I'll let you finish that bit and then I'll just.

 

Gillian L Coutts (34:33)

Because obviously from the day of my stroke you have been unbelievable, unbelievable. And in that moment Jenny was actually given the role of the Potential Project director and has gone ahead with the just absolutely the

 

greatest intention and the greatest outcome. But now we're talking about how does this become, how does this continue and what is, what is tools? But yeah, it's been, and it is a,

 

Mariane (35:22)

Mmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (35:36)

a live question.

 

Mariane (35:40)

Yeah, that's a beautiful way of describing it, a live question, it's unfolding. Yeah.

 

Gillian L Coutts (35:43)

Yeah. Yeah. I know very well,

 

Jenny Steadman (35:44)

you

 

Well, gosh, there's so much that I could say about all of that. I think that...

 

Mariane (35:48)

Yeah.

 

Jenny Steadman (35:57)

It's been hard to see what Gill has had to face, what you've gone through, Gill. And...

 

Mariane (36:05)

Hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (36:10)

and continues to go through as well. I feel...

 

feel like my like my meditation practice actually is so supportive through all of this because this is just about helping us to be with what is and meditation and all of the framework around it which is all of the learnings and the teachings that come from millennia actually has really helped me to just be able to be with what is.

 

at the moment and ongoingly and letting go of the expectations of what things might be like in the future. Knowing that there's desires for way for the way that things might be in the future and and they might be not wanting things to be a certain way you know whatever whatever but all of this is about helping me helping us perhaps but certainly helping me just to be with things the way that they are.

 

Mariane (36:50)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (37:17)

And there's also just a letting go of of ego like I think from both of our perspectives there's been the need just to stay humble through all of this. To stay humble, just to stay curious, just to have care and compassion as the number one thing and yet

 

Mariane (37:33)

Yeah.

 

Mmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (37:42)

I never have let Potential Project go through all of this. Like my commitment to Potential Project has been really huge. So even though, and especially for that first year, like I'd go and visit you every week in hospital, Gill, or, you know, or maybe it wasn't quite a whole year because you were in hospital for how long was it? Nine months? 10? Eight? Yeah, 10. 10 months. That's right. So...

 

Mariane (37:51)

Hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (38:11)

I'd go visit Gill in hospital every week and because I live in the Blue Mountains that's like a half day out of my day, half a day each week. And that was critically important to do that. And I could still do Potential Project at the same time. There was a myriad of other stuff going on in my life as well. I think what I'm trying to say is that it's just to being with what is but being driven by the North Star of care and compassion has been.

 

Mariane (38:18)

Mmm.

 

Mm.

 

Jenny Steadman (38:40)

really important and knowing that that doesn't mean that I have to let other things go in order to bring in that caring compassion. It's possible to do both. I don't know if I've answered your question actually now I'm trying to remember what the question was. Better.

 

Mariane (38:57)

You took us on a beautiful journey. For me, the main message and the takeaway that I'm sitting with is to sit with what is. And I think that is just such a brilliant message and so timely within itself for me personally. But I think for a lot of our listeners, especially as there's a lot of change happening right now, and there's always been change, it's just that right now it feels like there's exponential change happening.

 

for a lot of people, whether it be personally in their lives for health reasons, work reasons, globally as well. so that, yeah, that what you've gifted me at least, and hopefully our listeners as well, is a sense of modeling that with change comes that uncertainty. And a lot of that uncertainty invites us to let go of prior expectations and to redesign how we want to define ourselves moving forward.

 

and the business has a place in that definition process. I love the fluidity that you're putting on the table is what I'm trying to say.

 

Jenny Steadman (39:58)

Yeah, yeah, I think that the change, if we can let go of our expectations, we can also then reduce suffering around Potential change. It just allows us to sort of be with things the way they are without amping up the suffering by thinking that it should be different. And I think I mentioned that it's been hard because I still

 

Mariane (40:08)

Hmm.

 

Absolutely.

 

Yeah. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Yeah.

 

Jenny Steadman (40:27)

Like there are so many videos I've got of Gill pre-stroke talking and delivering programs and being in conferences and listening on podcasts. And every time I come across one of those, there is that little arrow in my heart. And I can't even imagine what it would be like in your heart, Gill, which is just coming face to face again with those realities about impermanence and about suffering. Yeah. And how

 

Mariane (40:33)

Mmm, yep.

 

Jenny Steadman (40:56)

who we think we are is in fact not us like this not self concept of we think we're a certain way and then just life comes along and says no you're not and and I guess each time I see those videos I get that pain in my heart and then like I said I can't I can't even imagine what the pain would be like for you Gill and then I just have that reminder again I've just just got to be with things the way they are.

 

Gillian L Coutts (41:08)

Yeah.

 

Mariane (41:08)

Yeah.

 

Jenny Steadman (41:25)

This is just the way that it is. It's not personal to you or me and it's, you know, we all face it, but sorry.

 

Mariane (41:32)

But there's a loss. There's a grief and a loss for what was. And then a sitting with that and a sitting it side by side with what is as well. I mean, you're just, you're just still that bright shining light. I hope that's a good piece of information and use reflection for you. But I mean, gosh, but it's both, isn't it?

 

Gillian L Coutts (41:44)

Peace.

 

Well, it's funny because I used to be in a band and I used to not, I mean, was in my 40s for about 10 years. it's not that great. But what I was really, it was really interesting is I used to say, I'm hopeless. Like I'm hopeless. And now I look at those

 

Mariane (41:58)

I didn't know that.

 

Jenny Steadman (42:07)

She was very good.

 

Gillian L Coutts (42:18)

videos, I realized that and I go, wow, I was actually really good. Like, it's not that I was really, really good as in the voice or something like that that we see on television, but actually I was really good. And, and I think now I should have celebrated that. And I bet everyone on the podcast listening now would say, have things they say.

 

Mariane (42:33)

you

 

Gillian L Coutts (42:47)

I wish I was better at that. And my voice to those people is just give yourself space and the cues of showing up. Like it's just so amazing how that what you can put into something that you never recognize that it is a real achievement.

 

Mariane (43:18)

That is such a nice segue because I wanted to ask you about achievements, Last time I heard you speak, you know, there were moments like finding group in one hand that you didn't know if you'd get back again, kicking down the lane of a pool. Would you feel comfortable sharing some of some of the achievements that you're noting?

 

Gillian L Coutts (43:21)

me.

 

Can you just give me a see of where you're going with this question?

 

Mariane (43:43)

Sure, I don't necessarily have a set expectation of your answer, but I'm curious about your recovery and how you're feeling in terms of those mini achievements that others might be surprised by. I think so many people take, for example, it's for granted that you could grip a hand, but when you lose your ability for a hand grip, that's a big moment. Taking a step is big moment. Finding a word. Yeah, what are you celebrating at the moment?

 

Gillian L Coutts (43:53)

1. Yeah.

 

Absolutely, yeah. Thank you. So, well at the moment the things I'm working on are my knee and making it go up a step without it being it before, so it is like it just needs to be stronger and

 

Mariane (44:35)

Mm-hmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (44:36)

And in the reality is it probably won't be strong enough to actually walk with it. I want to get it as strong as it can be. So I'm celebrating when I make tiny, tiny, like just like I, yesterday I had like eight, going up and down stairs.

 

And tomorrow I would want to try and do nine. So it is that basic, basic like, you know, but the same thing was like a, one of the things is I can't, I'm right-handed and now my right hand's busted. my left can, can, can,

 

Mariane (45:10)

I love that.

 

It's 1 % Yeah

 

Gillian L Coutts (45:35)

I want to be able to write my diary with my left hand. And so I've been doing like, I started with the brown, do you remember the words? brown, a fast dog, like, anyway, it was a

 

Mariane (46:04)

The quick brown fox jumped over that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I had to think because when it comes to those types of little, I also get stuck on my mind, but great.

 

Gillian L Coutts (46:05)

Yeah, that's it. That's it. Exactly.

 

So I was doing that and was writing it 12 times and then I got, then I got to the end of two months and I thought, far out, I'm bored of this. So I went and got some Brené Brown and I just tried, I said, okay, I'm going to write out a page of her every day. And that was good. like just being able to write so that you can, people,

 

Mariane (46:19)

Amazing.

 

Yes

 

Wow.

 

Mmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (46:45)

actually can read it. So now my family can read it. they can read that I've written. So it's like just, you know, each day that the tiniest thing that you can do that she sees that you're actually making progress and be.

 

Mariane (46:50)

Mmm.

 

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (47:12)

grateful for those things and give up all of the bashing around things you can't do because you know it always will be.

 

Mariane (47:23)

And that's for all of us, that perseverance and that grit and that willingness to step into something that's hard without necessarily knowing the outcome and then measuring and celebrating that success. Thank you. That's very inspiring.

 

you've been so generous with your time and I'm conscious of energy levels. I would normally have all of these additional quick fire around questions that I'm not going to put you through but I do have two if you feel like you've got the energy left for both. The first one is what comes to mind when you think of the word having or the words of having an impact mindset.

 

Gillian L Coutts (48:08)

Go at din. I can see. Got it.

 

Jenny Steadman (48:09)

Thank

 

Well, I know I've been saying this probably a couple of times during it today, but I think an impact mindset has to start with self-awareness and from self-awareness, it's then having that capacity to discern the wisdom of what to do with that awareness and

 

Gillian L Coutts (48:37)

Mm.

 

Jenny Steadman (48:40)

that can only be supported by doing so with care and compassion. So they're the three things that I've mentioned before, but I think are relevant to this answer as well. Yeah, an impact mindset has to include awareness, wisdom and compassion.

 

Mariane (48:50)

Hmm.

 

Gillian L Coutts (48:56)

Yeah.

 

Mariane (48:58)

I like that. That's giving me some food for thought. Thanks Jenny. How about you, Gill? Anything come to mind when you think of those words? Impact mindset?

 

Gillian L Coutts (49:08)

I for me, I definitely can concur with Jenny. I think that is really very wise. And the day by day thing of it is just do the best you can. And sometimes even the best you can is just actually doing not very much. Like just, like just.

 

Mariane (49:32)

showing up.

 

Gillian L Coutts (49:36)

keep going and keep going and keep going and also rest.

 

Mariane (49:43)

Yes, yes to rest. We can all do with a bit more of that. Thank you. This one's a big one. See how you feel. What does it mean to live a meaningful life?

 

Gillian L Coutts (49:59)

Is that the question?

 

Mariane (50:00)

Yeah.

 

Where do you start?

 

Gillian L Coutts (50:06)

That's a very interesting question because it's a question that I'm asking myself day, literally day by day and actually more than once a day. I think that it's always got to be for me compassion, compassion for self and compassion for others that if you...

 

take from that and see from that place everything, even the smallest, like if I go downstairs and one of the people who works in the building is like just smiling at him and to see

 

that sometimes it actually makes a bit of a difference to his day, I'm told. It's okay. It's like whatever it is that can be of worth that really to me and certainly for family as well, that would be good enough for me today.

 

Mariane (51:34)

Thank you. Jenny, throw to you.

 

Jenny Steadman (51:39)

Yeah, a very, very similar answer. I've been reflecting on that quite a lot. And what does it mean to lead a meaningful life? For me, it is about the care for people, the humanity that is possible to do in any setting. And...

 

That doesn't mean that we can't do hard things or that we can't have hard conversations. But what I'm talking about is just a meaningful life is one where we see the humanity in people and we act with care and that care can be there in all sorts of different settings. It can be there with strangers. It can be there with the people who we've known our entire life. It can be there with anyone in between and...

 

Mariane (52:05)

Yeah.

 

Jenny Steadman (52:29)

think that's that if I was to say the number one thing it my answer today is that my answer tomorrow might change a little bit but that's how I feel right now as well that right that's how I feel right now.

 

Mariane (52:48)

I love that. Thank you so much. so much in today's conversation. Before I let you go and say goodbye, is there anything that we've missed? Is there anything that you want our listeners to really take away and to think about? Call to action.

 

Gillian L Coutts (53:08)

I think mine is just for me, it's funny because I've been thinking about this a lot and just being witness to the dignity of the human spirit, it's just so, it's so, just so.

 

interesting, interesting in my head, but also I love it from my heart and so the thing that I would hope that I keep doing, it's just bearing witness and that, that, you know, what can be from there is, we'll see what we see.

 

Mariane (53:39)

Hmm.

 

delicious. Thank you Jenny. Is there anything that you haven't said that you'd like our listeners to be left with?

 

Jenny Steadman (54:07)

Well I think just coming off the back of what you were saying before about pre-stroke, she didn't really appreciate the fact that she was a really great musician and all these other things as well. So I think for people listening, I think that might be that little bit of call to action is what is it that is that have that we've got in our life right now that we have achieved or that we've done or that we've given or that we've

 

whatever it might be that because it's a positive thing we're not seeing it because we're so busy looking at the the negative things or the things that we want to be different in some way. So I think that and thanks to you all for pointing that out that what is it right now that if we looked back on it later we would think wow that was amazing. So why we just look that out and be

 

Mariane (55:00)

Mm-hmm.

 

Jenny Steadman (55:04)

Be amazed now as we're in the middle of actually experiencing this thing.

 

Gillian L Coutts (55:10)

Beautiful. Beautiful.

 

Mariane (55:11)

Yeah, beautiful. It comes back to that mindful set of being, doesn't it?

 

Where can people find you? Because I know they're going to want to follow up with a Potential Project. Get amongst what's happening.

 

Jenny Steadman (55:22)

Thank you. We would love it if people did follow up with Potential Project. We've got our next book coming out by Harvard Business Review in March, which is all about how we can know the AI and the human leadership. So we've got a lot to do in that space. So people can learn more about Potential Project at potentialproject.com. Gill and I are both on LinkedIn and you can find us there. And I've got my Jenny Stedman website. So it's jennistedman.com.au.

 

Mariane (55:30)

So exciting.

 

Jenny Steadman (55:52)

And that has a bit of a catch-all of everything that I do around the Potential Project work and then the mindfulness meditation work. also I do a lot with advocacy for people who've experienced sexual violence. So that's all mentioned there on my website as well. So people can find us through those means.

 

Mariane (56:11)

Everywhere. Amazing. I'll drop links into the show notes too, so if you're listening, there are so many places to stay in touch with these two incredible women. You've both been, this conversation has just expanded my thinking and my heart and my soul and my hope for not only the future, but this very present moment and today in general and everything that is in front of us. So thank you so much for joining us and to our listeners, thank you again for another episode, being a part of it. Classroom 5.0, your interest in inclusive impact. We'll see you next time.